Guest Genealogist Barbara Brown Answer Part 2

Guest Genealogist Barbara Brown Response, Part 2. See Part 1 of Barbara's answer (published Nov. 13/09) to Marcia's challenging question

You state that you do not know James' first wife's name. That should be among the first goals for your research. You know the names of his children by that first wife, we know that Elizabeth lived until 1847. Find the death information for Elizabeth, and perhaps you will discover her mother's name. Do the same for her siblings. See the Ancestor Death Record Finder for help with finding death records.

Armed with a name for James' first wife, you can then look for their marriage. Church records may have parents' names or the names of witnesses. Witnesses are often (but not always) related and offer another avenue of research for you. Marriage bonds are usually good pointers to older male relatives (but of course, not always). Of significant help in finding early parents are, surprisingly, brothers-in-law. For example, there may be several James Baggotts, but only one has a sister Hermione who is married to a Saul Leffingwell.

When you find [e.g.] Saul and Hermione Leffingwell selling a piece of land to James Beggit of Ohio as "distribution of estate" you have a probable winner....And once you have collected the in-law names, you can look through Virginia wills & estates records and find like-named devisees to point the way to earlier generations. You may want to see Ancestor Marriage Record Finder for help finding marriage records.

You have James' date and location of death. Have you looked for probate records? Or obituaries? From the 1850 / 1860 census, it looks as though the children of the second marriage were all born in Ohio. I used the census records on Ancestry.com but these are now coming online on Footnote,com too.

When did James and Mary marry? Are there cemetery indices for that county James lived in at the time of his 2nd marriage? Are there female Baggots buried there who died before James' second marriage (and after the birth of Martha the youngest child of the first marriage)?

You have so many opportunities for new knowledge about this family. I hope that you enjoy the process.

And I know that you will be successful. While I was writing this response to your query, I did a bit of looking about. I followed William and George and Martha and James P Baggott. And there is quite a bit to be found, and a large number of descendants for your James Baggott. And a little gift: write Lorine at askolivetreeATgmail.com (replace AT with @) and she will give you the details. Martha Baggott married quite well; she was still living in 1900 in New York, replete with many servants. As she was active in the social scene there, I am sure that you will be able to find a glowing obituary for her, as well as very extensive estate papers.

Guest Genealogist Barbara Brown Answer Part 1

Guest Genealogist Barbara Brown tackles this challenging query, in a 2-part response.

Marcia's Question:

I would be very grateful if you could give me an idea as to how to find information on my great-great grandfather's father/mother, and even further back, if possible.

James was born in Fredericksburg, VA, in 1791. He was a participant in the War of 1812. He died in Osborn (now Fairborn) Ohio in January of 1863. He had three brothers:

1. William, born in Fredericksburg, VA, December 25, 1798
2. George
3. John

I don't know his first wife's name, but you printed a letter from his daughter, Elizabeth, entitled, "Letter to Mrs. Eliza Thornton, Alamucha P.O., Lauderdale County, Mississippi, form Elizabeth Baggott, Dayton, Montgomery County, Ohio, March 14, 1847." Thanks for that!

James and his first wife had four children:

1. Elizabeth, born April 6, 1826.
2. William
3. George
4. Martha Ann

In the letter, Elizabeth says, "Father is married again." His second wife was Mary Caylor who died in May of 1877. They had six children:

Oliver Perry (my great-grandfather, who fought in the Civil War. I have a copy of his diaries). He was born in Montgomery County (near Dayton), Ohio on September 1, 1840, and died on October 14, 1906, in Anna, IL.

Josephine Boneparte

Charles L. who died March 02, 1898. He is buried in Murphysboro, IL.

Martin VanBuren, born January 30, 1837, died in Cobden, IL.

James K. Polk Baggott

Virginia Helen Baggott

There is this Spotslylania County, VA, will of 1773 with the same names as my ancestors (John, James, George). I suspect they're relatives, but how do I make the connection?

Will: John Baggott, Spotsylvania Co, VA (1773) [Edited]Names wife Margarett Baggot, daughter Ellinor Baggott , four sons as follows: John Baggott, James Baggott, Thomas Bagott, & George Baggott wife Margarett Baggott & James Went Executors
third day of April 1773. John Baggott (seal)
Witnesses:
Thomas Ruseley
William Hopson
Nicholas Smyth
Source: Library of Virginia,Spotsylvania Co, VA Will Book E 1772-1798Reel 28, pages 185-186

Guest Genealogist Barbara Brown responds: Dear Marcia,

It is tempting to jump upon a surname associated with familiar family forenames in the hopes that you have made a multi-generational leap in your quest. And the James Baggot who left a will in 1773 may indeed be one of your forebears. But proving it will take a bit more buttressing of facts before we can declare it to be true.

I have a number of Virginia resources to hand and I can tell you that there are quite a few Baggott families in the area at the time your James would have been there.

In order to move confidently from one generation to the next, we need to build a framework. That frame holds every fact we know about an individual, and if something or someone looks promising, we can know at a glance if we are on the right track. The structure gives us an orientation in place and time.

The letter from Elizabeth Baggott to her aunt Eliza Thornton which Lorine posted on her website Past Voices: Letters Home gave you a wonderful starting point. Rarely do genealogists come across such a valuable document.

Elizabeth listed her siblings and their ages, named her father's second wife, named other relatives in Mississippi and Virginia. And there is an implied bit of information as well: Elizabeth complains that she has not ever heard from her grandmother. Which means that one of Elizabeth's grandmother's lived to at least 1830s, when Elizabeth would have been old enough to be aware of such a deprivation.

Before you can confidently look for James' ancestors, you need to fill in all the details for James, his wives and children.


For example, fill in the details on James' children, when each of them were born. Follow the children from the first marriage: they may well have clues to offer about James and his first wife. They may be found living with or near other relatives; they may have left a will naming cousins or aunts; they may have a long a detailed obituary. You can Search Obituaries in GenealogyBank.com or NewspaperArchive.com

Where is James in 1820, 1830, 1840?

You state that James participated in the War of 1812. Did he draw a pension?

You do not mention how you know that James had siblings William, George and John, so I will accept for the moment that you have family documents which state that. Have you followed those brothers? They might have lived longer than James, may have left a will or (if you are most fortunate) lived in a locale which had informative death records, and a fully-informed supplier of information who reported their deaths.
The wills may mention "My nephew Oliver" or "My niece Mary Smith nee Baggott, daughter of my eldest brother James." Those death records, if you are lucky may give parents names. And they may have lived in an area where newspapers dutifully reported every social event, and spent much time researching and composing fitting tributes in the form of obituaries.

Every day, more and more early newspapers are brought online, indexed and presented in convenient fashion. But we must have pinned down the relevant locales first.

...to be continued tomorrow

Guest Genealogist Barbara Brown

Ask Olive Tree is very honoured to have Guest Genealogist Barbara Brown this month. Barbara started researching her own family more than thirty years ago, while she pursued a corporate career in data processing. Eventually, this hobby became a full-time calling.

She has taught at LDS wards and stake conferences, and at local libraries, and she has taken on a number of private students. While researching for others, she discovered the NGS Bulletin Board system in 1990, which soon led to other online genealogy societies.

Her articles have appeared in a number of e-zines including Olive Tree Genealogy. You can count on Barbara to find the most elusive ancestors even when you are sure that you have hit the proverbial brick-wall!

Barbara tackles a very intriguing and challenging question for Ask Olive Tree, so please check back tomorrow for her response to Marcia's Question.

From Canada to Australia - Finding a Ships Passenger List

Fred's Question:

I am trying to find how my Gfather Charles Hayes came to Australia form Canada in 1906 ,we have been told a lot different stories,it appears he married in Newcastle sometime in 1906.His death papers stated that in 1915 when he died he had been in Australia 9 years,he had 3 children in Australia as my gmother was born Newcastle area. my Gfathers date of birth according to his death papers was 1880 and born in Toronto, papers stated that his father was William Hayes and mother May A Cleary. Any help or direction would be greatly appreceated by all 11 of us and our offspring.

Olive Tree Answer: Dear Fred - It seems you have some good clues to go on, although you have to remember that the death papers may not be accurate. The information in them was not given by your grandfather (the deceased) and depending who the informant was, and how much they knew about your grandfather, will indicate how valid the details might be.

Having said that, you will want to use the 1906 year as a starting point for your search for immigration records. Allow a few years either side to be safe. Of course if you could find his marriage to your grandmother, you could narrow the timeframe! Have you searched the Index to Births, Marriages & Deaths for New South Wales for marriages resources? You didn't provide me with Charles' wife's name so I can't say if any of the 3 hits I got are for your grandfather.

I should also point out that it is easy to forget that the person you are asking for help may not be familiar with the local geography, but it's very important to provided all location details. For example I have no idea where Newcastle Australia is, but I needed to know to direct you to the correct area for BDM. I wasn't going to go hunting but decided this was a good opportunity to give readers a little reminder that you should never make the person helping you work harder than necessary! A search online provided me with the fact that Newcastle is in New South Wales District but it would have saved me time if that information were provided to me.

But back to finding a ships passenger list - you will either need to find a ship outbound from Canada or inbound to Australia from 1904-1908. The online UK Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960 on Ancestry also show ship arrivals in Australia so they may be worth a search. There is also the New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922 I also like Cora's Web for finding what is available in online ships passenger lists to Australia.

There are also the online Australian Electoral Rolls, 1903-1954 which might help indicate when your grandfather arrived in Australia.

Finding Catholic Records in Ontario

RMC asked:

Cameron: Albert Alexander, b. 1837 in "Ontario," likely. Married 1869 in Catholic service to Minnie O'Toole in Guelph. Moved to SLC, Utah, prior to 1875. Any idea how one might find his parents' names. They both immigrated from Scotland, according to census records. Thank you!

Olive Tree Answer: Hello RMC. You provided your private email and requested a response to it, but the purpose of the AskOliveTree Blog is to publish queries and my answers on it for all genealogists to read. It is my hope that the Q & A will help more than one researcher!

Since your family were Catholic in Guelph, you may wish to write to Church of Our Lady (in Guelph) and request a lookup of Albert and Minnie's marriage. The research fee used to be $15.00 per hour. Just address your letter to the Secretary, Church of Our Lady, 28 Norfolk St. Guelph, ON N1H 4H8, Canada

You can also contact them using their online email form

New York to Canada - Finding the Records

Myra's Question (edited):

My great grandfather was George Colburn Herron. He said he was born in 'York State', on 23 August 1836. He died 10 May 1887, in Wilson township, Alpena county, Michigan.

His story was: he was born to Patrick and Mary Ann Herron. He said his father was from Ireland and his mother was Pennsylvania Dutch. He, saying he was the oldest, had 5 brothers and sisters. His mother died when he was about 8, his father apprenticed him out to a bad situation. He ran away from the apprenticeship, and ended up in the Cayuga area, Haldimand county, Ontario, Canada. He lived with Isaac
and Mary Mino, near a Link family (Jacob and Anna Maria) that included a daughter named Catherine, born in 1842 in Germany. The Mino family raised him, and his best friend there was Noble Brackinreed, a local boy who also was apprenticed out later. At one point, most likely during the US Civil War, Noble and George traveled out of Canada to Tennessee, and the story says (he told this to his daughter, who told
her own daughter later, who wrote all the stories down) that he and Noble were looking to improve their lives. They didn't stay there. Noble enlisted in the Union Army in Ohio (30 May 1862), and George returned to the Cayuga area. He and Catherine went off and married secretly, and they had their first child somewhere, either in Canada or the US,by 25 August 1862 (George S. Herron). Their 2nd child, Julia Anna, was born 19 April 1864, maybe in Port Huron, Michigan. No records have been found of the marriage or the first two births. The rest of the births all happened in Alpena county.

I can find NO records of George's family (although I did find a family in Albany, New York, in 1850, with a Patrick and Ann Herrin as parents, and 6 children, one of whom was named George. However, he was not the oldest of the children there, and the birth date (about 1844) was off by about 8 years. I've been told there is also a "York" area in Ontario, and there are Herrons around there, but I haven't found anything showing George there. Nor can I find anything in the Cayuga area indicating George was there! seemed satisfied with his stories being true.

The only time I find George, where I KNOW it's him, is in Alpena county, Michigan. This is my direct family line, and I can't go back beyond great grandfather George Colburn Herron in . I really need help. I use ancestry.com and familysearch.org. I post queries all the time. I have never found anything or anyone that can or will help.

I would love to find anything showing George in the Cayuga area, or something about his marriage or the births of his first 2 children.In 1870, in Alpena county, there are Noble and his wife, Mary, with no children. 2 doors down (sort of, it was a farming community) were George and Catherine, with their 5 children. There, George stated he was born in Canada, and all children were stated to have been born in Michigan. The 1880 census (enumerated by Noble Brackinreed) said he was born in Ontario, with parents born in Ireland and PA. George died in 1887, so no other records are available. His death certificate listed his parents' names, and the 1880 census and his family stories stated where his parents were born.

I really need some help, guidance, etc. on this one

Guest Genealogist Kathryn Lake of LOOKING4ANCESTORS responds: Greetings Myra,

You have a challenging search ahead of you. The information you seek regarding George Herron's birth may not be available. From the information you have provided, George was born between 1836 - 1844 which was before Vital Registration in Ontario which began 1 July 1869. Records for this time period in Upper Canada (Ontario) are often difficult to find, especially births. Parish baptism records might provide the information you are looking for, however, you would need to know the church that the family attended. Have you searched for what records have been microfilmed for Haldimond County on the FamilySearch Library catalog?

A search of Isaac and Mary Minto on the 1851 Canada West census shows no George Herron residing with them. I did find two other "George Herron"s that may be a possibility, but not knowing the names of the siblings I'm not sure. The 1851 Canada West census is indexed and available on Ancestry.com.

Also, have you searched the 1842 Census of Canada West for Patrick Herron? This is a head of household census only. This census in not available on-line. I would suggest contacting the Haldimond County branch of the Ontario Genealogical Society to see if they have this census indexed. The microfilm can be borrowed from the Archives of Ontario through inter-library loan.

Another approach is to research George's siblings. Have you found the marriage and death registrations for them? They may name the parents on these records.

Good luck in your research.

Kathryn

Using Wildcards to Find an Ancestor in Online Search Engines

Peter's Question:

I am the archivist at Marlborough School in Los Angeles. For some research I am doing, I am interested in an 1874 and an 1875 passenger list.

Mary Deering sailed from Quebec to Londonderry (Liverpool) aboard the Sarmatian on June 24 (?) of 1874. Mary Deering returned to Quebec in June of 1875; however I do not know the name of the ship; I do know that the return voyage was several days (June 5, 1875?) after the Vicksburg was hit by icebergs, so I suspect that the date was early June in 1975. [sic]

I have searched the internet, but cannot find a passenger list for the June 1874 Sarmatian nor for the June 1875 return date above. I am interested in receiving a copy of passenger lists for both.

Mary Deering was not an immigrant; she was an American citizen from Maine. Thanks for any help or suggestions you can provide.

Olive Tree Answer: Dear Peter, You have not said how you know that Mary Deering was on board a ship named Sarmation which sailed in June 1874. I would advise against looking for a ship with that name and sailing on that date unless you have absolute proof. Even if you have something like a diary that Mary wrote, it would not be absolute proof, as people mix up ship names or get dates wrong. If you have something written long after the event, remember that memories are often hazy. If someone other than Mary provided the details, then you are getting even further from a reliable source.

In any case, I had a quick look in Canadian Passenger Lists on Ancestry.com and I see that there is a Miss Deering arriving in Quebec on 8 June 1875 on board the Nova Scotian. This passenger was born ca 1851 but since you did not provide a date of birth for your Mary Deering, I've no way of knowing if this is a possibility.

In any case I suggest you search for your Miss Deering using wildcards to allow for deviant spellings and without a first name. Use other facts such as her age, year of arrival and so on. Ancestry, for example, allows the use of a wildcard (*) after the first 3 letters of a name. That wildcard will replace up to 5 following letters.

It also allows the use of a wildcard (?) to replace one specific letter, so searching for DE?RING would bring up Deering and Dearing.