Getting Through the Confusing Maze of Variant Names and Spelling

Christine has confusion with the varied spelling of her ancestor's name - recorded variously as Grumbley, Grambley, Grumley, Grimley, Bromley, Grumly

I have been searching for my 2^nd great grandfather Philip Richard Grumbley b: abt 1823 in Ireland.  My great grandfather’s obituary spelled his last name as Grambley but survived by a brother named Grumbley.  I can document the wife Rosa with Philip Richard Grumley and their children in  the 1880 Harmony Township, Clark County, Ohio census.  I found the family listed in 1870 as Grimley in Harmony Township, Clark County, Ohio.  In the 1860 census they are listed as Bromley in Green Township, Clark County, Ohio.  The church marriage records from the diocese list them in 1853 as Philipium Grumly and Rosea Hockett and shows them married in Springfield, Ohio at St Raphael’s Church.  I found marriage records for two of the daughters as late as 1887 in South Charleston, Ohio at St Charles Borromeo Parish.  Try as I might, I can not find a death record for either Rosa nor Philip Grumbley.  I have not found anything that tells me other than Ireland and I am not at all sure how their name was really spelled!  I have been a member of ancestry since it’s beginning and I have used familysearch.org, findagrave and the Clark County Heritage Center Library.  No luck……… Can you help?

Christine - Normally when there is such a jump from a surname starting with "G" to "B" as in that 1860 census, the usual reason is that the original record has been mis-transcribed. In this case, it has not. The image clearly shows Brumley. So how does this happen? Say the two names out loud. They sound rather similar, especially if mumbled, said with an accent or by a child. Remember we do not know who gave information when the census taker came around - was it a neighbour, a child? Did the person giving the information have a strong accent? This family was from Ireland and I can well imagine a clerk could easily confuse the sound of Grumley for Brumley. I'd discard that as a variant of the surname.

As for the other variations, remember that spelling was not standardized in the 19th century. People spelled words as they sounded (phonetically) and many individuals could not read or write. You can get more help with an article I wrote called  5 Tips to Help You Navigate the Confusing Maze of Surname Variations

Finding a place of origin in Ireland can be a challenge. One of the tricks I use is to trace the children and find their marriage and death records. Sometimes you get lucky and a county of origin is given. Also look for obituaries of the parents and all the children. Since you found church records for the family you know what religion they were. This can help you narrow the search in Ireland. I see they were Catholic so you might want to search the new online Catholic Parish Registers for Ireland. You might first want to read my blog post 10 Steps to Searching the Irish Catholic Parish Records When You Only Know a County of Origin. 

The tips will work even without you knowing a county of origin but hopefully you can narrow that down by finding those all-important death records.

Don't Be Sidetracked by Online Family Trees Before Obtaining Basic Records

John asked this question:

" I've been seeking information on the parents of my great, great grandfather, John Barry. There, I've run into a brick wall. My information is from a family Bible record that goes back to 1810. John Barry married Johanna Harrington on 23 Feb. 1840 in Ireland. Witnesses were Daniel Harrington and Patrick Barry. The report identified the Diocesan Area as Cork & Ross and the Parochial Area as Durris (Muintervara). I know John and Johanna (I've found two spellings for her first name) had one child in Ireland who survived the trip to Canada in 1846. Family legend claims two children died aboard ship and were buried at sea. I've been told that local parish records in Cork prior to 1820 have been destroyed so I cannot pursue more on Patrick or Mary. Any ideas? I have found some possible death records on Ancestry.com that I can't authenticate. What might I try now?  John Barry, 1810-1880, married Johanna(?) Harrington, 1815-1883, on 23 Feb. 1840"

In response to a question I posed, John stated that he had found about 15 family trees on Ancestry but they had lots of incorrect information. 

1871 Census Caradoc Twp, Middlesex Co. Ontario

My response:

You can confirm that family lore by visiting the census records. I had a quick look on  Ancestry.com and found John and Johanna in Caradoc, Middlesex County in 1871. Living next door were John Harrington and wife Jane and family. John Harrington and Johanna are quite possibly siblings. 

In the 1861 Agricultural census John Barry and John Harrington are shown sharing (50 acres each) Lot 1 Conc. 8 in Caradoc. In 1881 Michael Barry, Johanna Barry and James Barry live next door to John Harrington and family. No doubt  John Barry died between 1871 and 1881.

You need to get the images for all these records and study the neighbours, occupations of individuals etc. For eg John Barry and John Harrington are noted as farmers - that means they likely bought land and your next step would be to check the CLRI *and* the Abstract Indexes to Deeds for more information on their land purchases! For help with the CLRI and the AI to D, see http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/can/ont/clri.shtml

The death certificate of a daughter of John Harrington and Jane gives Jane's maiden name as Barry. It looks like siblings married siblings.  It seems you have a lot of records available to help you put these families together and learn more about them

Don't Put all your Genealogy Eggs in One Basket!

Donald's Question:

Hiram Walker was born in Tennessee in 1807 and married Judah George in 1827. According to the 1880 Census his father, Alexander Walker, was born in Ireland and his mother was born in Pennsylvania. Since the Walkers were early Methodist, I beleive they came from Ultser to Philadelphia about 1780-1800. I can't find them on any of the 1810 or 1820 Censuses or on any ships list. Any assistance would be appreciated!

Olive Tree Answer: Donald - Unless you have other sources which confirm Hiram's father's birth in Ireland, I would hesitate to embark on a research tour of Ulster resources based on one census entry.

What do we know about Hiram's father? We know that he (or at least his wife) was in Tennessee in 1807.

When did Hiram die? Do you have his obituary or his death certificate? I assume that you have documentation which provided the father's name as Alexander.

I hope that you have done all the usual checking: followed other Walkers born in Tennessee living near Hiram, searched Tennessee Grantor/grantee indices, consulted TSL newspaper index, found any Walkers born in Tennessee which are of a similar age, (e.g. have you looked at the 1850 Census on Ancestry.com for Polly Walker and her family? Polly born in Pennsylvania, her children state father was born in Virginia; three daughters Ann, Alcy, and Mary Walker White lived long enough to find death certificates for them).

You may want to have a look at the Ancestor Death Record Finder for more help with alternate ideas for death records other than obituaries or death certificates.

Finding an Ancestor in Griffith's Index and Scottish Newspapers

Sandra's Question:

My g-grandparents Robert Thomson & Jane Cochrane were born in Ireland and moved to Scotland where they married in 1868 in Port Glasgow, Renfrewshire. I have found their marriage certificates listing their parents names and professions. I have searched the Scottish Censuses for 1841 through 1891. In every source their birthplace is listed only as Ireland. The last names of Thomson, Getty, Cochrane & Fullerton, (my gg-grandparents), I learned from Irish web sites, were Scottish. Their relegion was Presbyterian. From the frequency of appearance of these last names and their religion, I believe they are from Northern Ireland (Antrim, Armagh, etc.) but may have
come from Scotland sometime in the past.

I have searched in Ancestry, Family Search, Scotland's People, and a few Irish Library resources. I have had no luck so far. I understand that the Irish censuses were destroyed for the pertinent years. My question is, What online resources are available for more information? I'm happy to pay for access to this information, but before subscribing, I would like to know the probability of success. I've heard of Griffith's Evaluation but not yet located it online.

Ask Olive Answer Hi Sandra - You indicated that you have searched the Scottish census, but did not mention how much success you had. Did you find Robert (or Jane) with their parents? Do either of them have siblings?

It is always a good idea to check the siblings' marriage and death records, too. Some subtle changes may occur in maiden names, and the "deceased" notation under parents' names may help to narrow down the death date range for those parents. And occasionally, very detailed information (i.e. street addresses, towns) may be found.

Nor did you indicate whether you had searched the Scottish records for the parents of Robert and Jane. There was significant travel between Ireland and Scotland (though no passenger lists are available); it is not inconceivable that parents of Robert born 1849 would have lived past 1855, and hence findable on the ScotlandsPeople website.

Griffiths Index is available (free) at Fáilte Romhat and Ask About Ireland

The Scotsman (newspaper) has archives available online for a fee; you may find obituaries there.

How to find Birthplace of an ancestor born circa 1835 Ireland

Blaine's Question:

I have spent over ten years on this one. My great great grandfather John O'Connell was born in Ireland in 1825 and, per his marriage record, was the son of Jeremiah O'Connell & Bridget. He emigrated (per his obituary) to Lawrence, Massachusetts in 1846 and, by 1850 was living in Andover MA. In February,1850 he married Mary Horan of Buttevant, Co. Cork in Lawrence, MA . He and Mary lived in Andover until their deaths in 1896. John had a wheelwright shop. Family lore indicates that he may have come from Limerick along with four brothers each of whom "went his own way." John did not serve in the Civil War.

I have all the census records for John and Mary from 1850 through 1880. I have their marriage record and their death records. The 1865 state census shows that he was naturalized. The 1870 federal census shows he was a male "citizen". He was listed on Andover's voting records in 1877 and 1884. I have contacted the Massachusetts Judicial Archives as well as every Essex County, Massachusetts court that I can think of. I have also tried the National Archives. asking if there is a record of his naturalization. I've found nothing.

Can you offer any suggestions on how to proceed further with the search for a naturalization record or some other record that might identify his actual place of birth? Thank you very much for your thoughtfulness.

AskOlive Answer:
Hello Blaine, You will need to know if John was Catholic or non-Catholic, as different records exist in Ireland for each religion. I would pay a visit to Ireland GenWeb for more help. As for naturalization records, since you know that in 1870 he indicated he was a citizen of the USA, there should be some papers for him. However it is unlikely they will give the detail you want but you may be lucky. See an example of an 1832 naturalization document versus an 1880. The very early one gives a specific place of birth, the later one gives only country of birth. Since you are looking somewhere between 1850ish and 1865 you may or may not find what you need.

You may want to check for free Massachusetts naturalizations but don't miss Footnote.com and their Naturalization Records from NARA

You may also need to check neighbouring counties or states in case John naturalized elsewhere.

How to find records for Waterford Ireland

Ann's question:

My ggggrandfather is listed by the family in the 1850 Md. USA census as being from Ireland........On an old piece of paper in the family archives is a pencil notation "Waterford".....I have tried to get info from Genuki, but there does not seem to ba any re Waterford.......Can you help?

AskOlive Answer: Hello Ann, The GenUKI page for Waterford Ireland is found here. You may want to check the Ireland GenWeb site for Waterford for further help

Finding Records of War of Independence in Ireland

Kathryn's Question:

In the book, The Parish of Aughavas, Co. Leitrim, I found a photo of my Grandpa, Francis Kiernan, and Great Uncle, Pat McKiernan, while they were imprisoned in the Curragh in Ireland in 1921. I had previously known about him serving in the IRA but did not know that he was ever imprisoned until I
saw the photo. I would like to know if the British Government ever kept any
records of the men that were held prisoners in the Curragh during the War of
Independence. I have searched online but not found anything. I guess I would
like additional proof that he was imprisoned there. I would appreciate any
information that you might have.

Olive Tree Answer: Kathryn, You may want to go to The National Archives. Search for Curragh and prisoners and see what pops up. You could also contact the Archives to ask them if such records exist.

How to find records for Waterford Ireland

Ann's Question:

.My ggggrandfather is listed by the family in the
1850 Md. USA census as being from Ireland........ On an old piece of
paper in the family archives is a pencil notation "Waterford"..... I
have tried to get info from Genuki, but there does not seem to ba any
re Waterford....... Can you help?

Olive Tree Answer: Hello Ann. Lucky you having found mention of a place of origin in Ireland for your ancestor! Information on Waterford on GenUKI is found here. Have you checked the FamilySearch Catalogue to see what is available on microfilm? Also you may want to have a peek at this list of IGI Batch Numbers for Waterford, Ireland

FInding immigration record from Ireland to Australia

Faye asked

I have tried for years to find out how my husbands grandmother came to Australia from Ireland. I have her birth certificate, her in the 1901 Irish census BUT not in the 1911 cencus. I have her only childs (that we are aware of) birth certificate born in Sydney Australia. With this all I cannot find the ship, the dates, etc. where she travelled from and to. The info I have is as follows.

Jane O'Dea born November 1881 Baunmore, Kilkee, Kilrush, County Clare, Ireland. Father, Thomas O'Dea, mother Bridget, nee Bourke. Jane was 4th of 8 children. Jane was also known as Jennie or nana Jean to my hubby. She was informant at her fathers death in 1898 and was in the 1901 census with her mother and siblings. She was not in the 1911 cencus that I could find. She gave birth to my mother in law, Veronica May on 14th January 1915 at Crown St Womens Hospital Sydney, NSW Australia. Jane registered Veronicas birth and stated she was married to "William Sanders Hart", b. Canada in 1870's and a general labourer in New Zealand in 1906. No one can find the marriage but can find a "William Sanders Hart" marrying someone else in New Zealand in 1906. [rest of email edited for brevity]

Olive Tree Answer: Dear Faye, thank you so much for providing me with details and a very nicely compiled, easy to understand email outling what you know about Jane, where you've looked and what you want to find. The only reason I edited your email was for space here on AskOliveTree blog, but everything you sent was relevant and welcomed.

I am afraid I have not had much luck either but I did find one tiny item that may or may not be helpful. There is a Miss Jane O'Dea listed as arriving on the ship OMRAH on 30 April 1904 on the Index to Unassisted Inward Passenger Lists to Victoria 1852-1923 on the Public Record Office Victoria website. It might be worth sending for the full passenger list to see what other information is provided.

Best of luck!

Hiring a Professional Genealogist

Michael asked

How would you suggest locating a professional genealogist to assist. We are of Irish descent. One of the problems is that the oral history that has been passed down has the family from Dublin and also from Mayo.

Olive Tree Answer: I would try The Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland (APGI).

Would our ancestors go directly to a location to settle?

Betty asked...

QUESTION: I have a general question. If people from Ireland were leaving in the very early 1800's and going to Canada, would they have first settled in one of the Maritime Provinces or in the Prov. of Quebec, and "then" moved to the Prov. of Ontario? Or, in the 1820's or 1830's, for example, would they have continued on and gone directly to Ontario?

MY ANSWER: Hi Betty. That's a very good question. It would depend on several things -
First - did they have family or friends already in Canada? If so, they would mostlikely want to be near them

Second - were there land deals or incentives being offered at the time? And where? If there was a great opportunity to get a free or cheap grant of land, let's say in one area of Ontario, off they'd go to grab that

Third - jobs - for example when the Welland Canal in Ontario was begun (1830s I think) , jobs were plentiful and settlers flocked to the area to get one.

People back then were just like people now - they needed a home, food and a job. And they needed family and friends, not just for social interaction but for help with physical labour, or in times of illness or trouble.

Wherever those things were most plentiful, that is most often where they would settle.

Thomas Fitzsimmons & Harriet Eliza Barnes, USA & Canada

Dan of Pennsylvania asked ...

Q: I am looking for the birth record and ancestors of: Margaret FITZSIMMONS, believed to have been born in London, Middlesex, Ontario, Canada ca 1847. Her father FITZSIMMONS was born ca 1813 in Ireland. (First name unknown) Her mother was Harriet Eliza BARNES was born 1818 on the Isle of Wight, England. She emigrated to the US sometime before 1864, where she married Michael DOUGHERTY in Manhattan, New York, US, 1864.

A: The family arrived in New York on the ship Gideon arriving March 22, 1848 . The family group was Thomas Fitzsimmons 33, Harriet Fitzsimmons 29, Harriet Fitzsimmons 7, and Margaret Fitzsimmons age 2. They are found in Ancestry's
New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957

I had a look in the census records for USA for 1850, and the family is there in New York specifically New York Ward 1
Western Division.

The family consist of Thomas FITZSIMMONS, 43 born Ireland; Harriet FITZSIMMONS, 31 born England; Harriet FITZSIMMONS 10 born England and Margaret FITZSIMMONS 5 born New York. So your Margaret was not born in Ontario, and although this census says she was born New York, her arrival on the ship Gideon in 1848 indicates otherwise.

You might want to view the image for yourself, and search other census years. See All Census Records for help with census

I also found the family in the 1860 census for New York Ward 1 District 1, New York, New York. Little Harriet is now missing and Thomas FITZSIMMONS age 10 has joined the family.

Peter Jamison Ireland to America

Janet asked...

Q: Peter Jamison came to the US in 1866. What part of Ireland was he born? What port did he leave from and which port did he arrive? He went to Illinois where relatives lived and later to the Gold Fields in Calif.

A: Ships passenger lists to America from 1820 on are available online. You should be able to find your Peter Jamison in Immigration & Emigration Records on Ancestry.com Be sure you use the wildcard feature Ancestry offers to search for him as his surname can be spelled in a variety of ways. (Jamieson, Jameson, Jemison etc) Once you find him on a ships list you will see the port of departure and arrival noted. I would be cautious using 1866 as the firm arrival year. Be sure to search a few years on either side, as the year of immigration is very often mis-remembered.

Q: Was he naturalized? Peter was born in 1844 and died in 1907 in Red Oak, Iowa.

A: The USA Census records will give you citizenship status and dates of naturalization if it occured. Since Peter died before the 1910 census, you should look at the 1900 census. One of the questions asked on it was " the citizenship status of foreign-born individuals over age twenty-one" This will answer your question about naturalization.

To find out what other questions were asked on other census years, see AllCensusRecords.com If he was naturalized you can hunt for his records. Probably the easiest way to do this is to go to Naturalization Records website and use the records and links there.