Clues You Can Find in a Census Record

Bonnie recently asked Olive Tree Genealogy this question about her ancestors:

I have recently found my Grandmother listed on the 1901 Ontario Census in the township of Wroxeter in Huron County.  She was born on August 5, 1899.  Her parents were George J Harris and Agnes J Harris born Jan 3, 1875 and Sept 21, 1877 respectively.  I was hoping to find where George and Agnes were born, and when their families emigrated and from where?  We know very little about the Harris side of the family so I was very excited to see this much!

Dear Bonnie - It is easy to overlook clues that are in a record. For instance ONE census record can often provide a great many new facts and clues to work on. 

FACTS FROM THE CENSUS IMAGE

First let me show you some important facts I think you may have overlooked on that 1901 census. A look at the online image shows that George was born in Ontario and his wife Agnes in the USA. Agnes gives her year of immigration from America to Canada as 1881.

This means you can search the Ontario birth registrations to find who George's parents were. You also know that it is quite likely George and Agnes were married in Ontario so I'd start looking at Ontario marriage records. This should give you both sets of parents' names for the bride and the groom.

Secondly, Wroxeter is not the township where the couple lived. It is a village in Howick Township, Huron County.  The census images clearly indicates Wroxeter Village and a quick search online reveals the township it is in.

Continue reading at

Clues You Can Find in a Census Record!

Give All Information When Writing a Query

 Teddi sent a request for help to Olive Tree Genealogy. Here is her email to me:

I have been searching for my grandmother, Theodora Marino Pensyl, for several years now. She was married in Elkton, Maryland, on August 31, 1939 to Charles Wilbur Pensyl from Bedford, Bedford County, PA. They lived in Philadelphia, Pa near Jackson Street and my mother was born on September 18, 1940.

My mother's names is Dorothy Alice Pensyl; she was christened at the Catholic Church in the early part of December, 1940. My mother never had a birth certificate.

She never met her mother and she was raised by her grandmother, Alice Pensyl, until she turned five; at which time she was able to live with her father and his new "wife" (although they never legally married).

We do not know if Theodora was dead, or living and not able to see my mother due to my grandfather's ability to keep her hidden. I have tried Ancestry.com and was unable to reach anyone for assistance. Any ideas you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

Dear Teddi

Sometimes when a reader asks me for help, I immediately have questions. In this case I'm wondering how you knows these exact dates of marriage and birth of her mother. Why am I wondering? Because if you have the marriage record it must surely show an age for Theodora - and that would at least give an approximate year of birth. The birth record of Dorothy may show more details. Both are worth sending for if you do not already have them. If you do have them, you should consider sharing the information found on them when writing a query on a message board or privately (as you did to me)

Even though you say your mother never had a birth certificate, it is quite likely that one was filed and can be obtained. It's worth requesting it. 

Next question - have you found Charles and Theodora on the 1940 census? That would be very helpful to know because that will give you an age for Theordora and a location of birth.  It will also give the place of birth of her parents plus more detail.

Being curious, I had a quick look on Ancestry and I also googled the names. I found several queries you posted over the last several years. To my surprise you gave tidbits of information with each one - different each time - about Dorothea. I suspect you didn't realize how important and helpful each of these little pieces of information could be.

For example in one query you said Theodora sometimes went by Dottie. So that is another name under which to search, and I suspect Dorothy is yet another. In another query you mentioned you thought she had a sister Annette and a brother or father named Leo - these are names you can also search for online. It's crucial to provide these bits and pieces to anyone whose help you want whether on message boards or via email. Even family lore can prove helpful when facing a challenging research puzzle.

So please send for the birth and marriage records and let us know here on the Ask Olive Tree Genealogy blog if you have any other details (plus that all-important 1940 census record!)

Finding a Birth at Sea

Shirley asked

How can I trace an ancestor's birth if he were "born at sea" in 1830? I think the ship MAY have been from Germany or Ireland and arrived in (possibly) Philadelphia in that year.

I know he went on to marry Catherine Leonard. They lived and died in Pennsylvania (both died in 1855...coincidence or tragedy? They had a son named Samuel K. Linard sometimes shown as Saml Linard, Samuel H. Linard who was born May 9, 1852 in Madison twp, Perry County, Pennsylvania

OLIVE TREE ANSWER: Hi Shirley - if your ancestor were born on board a ship, his name or a record of the birth of an infant would almost certainly be found on the ship manifest.

You're in luck since Pennsylvania archived ships passenger lists as early as 1800. I would begin searching for his parents on Ancestry.com ships passenger lists to America (don't limit your search to Pennsylvania)

Obtaining a Recent Birth Certificate

Carole asked:

Is there a way to get a birth record on a more "recent" ancestor who was born in Illinois? I am helping my granddaughter prepare paperwork to join the D.A.R. Records from the 1700's are fairly easy to find, compared to a more recent inquiry!

My former husband was born in Illinois in 1941. I need some sort of documentation (not necessarily a birth certificate) to prove his birth date and parents' names. However, state authorities there tell us that only he or his parents can make such a request. His parents are both deceased and I haven't seen him for nearly ten years and have no idea how to get in touch with him. Authorities tell me that I, as a former spouse) cannot request them, and my granddaughter cannot request them either.

Is there some source we are overlooking for this record? Does Illinois have some source of documentation of birth records other than an actual birth certificate?

OLIVE TREE ANSWER: Dear Carole, Do you have your marriage certificate? Can you send for a copy? A Marriage Certificate almost always gives parents names and the groom's age

Have you looked for a newspaper announcement of your ex-husband's's birth?

Did you check to see if one of your children can make the request? You may want to check Ancestor Birth Record Finder for other ideas of alternate places to find a person's birth information

A quick look at the Illinois Vital Records website states that Uncertified copies of birth records for genealogical purposes are available to individuals who may not otherwise be entitled to receive a certified copy if the person's date of birth precedes the current date by 75 years or more. You may request this special application, only for birth records after 1916, form at vitalrecords@idph.state.il.us or by writing to:

Illinois Department of Public Health
Division of Vital Records
605 W. Jefferson St.
Springfield, IL 62702-5097

I would try requesting his birth information under those special conditions.

Verifying Genealogy Records found online

Wendye's Question:

I am trying to find the birth and death certificates for my gg grandfather James Webster Bremner. From Brebner.com I've learned that:

"James Webster Bremner b. 20 Sept 1835 in Kirriemuir ANS, SCT, occupation Weaver/Gardener, m. 22 Oct 1857, in Kingoldrum, ANS, SCT, Elisabeth Adam, b. 1827, Lintrathen.ANS, SCT. James died before 1881. 1871:Lived at 94 Morrice Place, Hilltown, Dundee with grandchildren."

I can't see that he could have grandchildren because his first child, Alexander Bremner(my g grandfather), was born 16 Oct 1857.
I have found James' marriage(Scotlandspeople) 22 Oct 1857, Kingoldrum, Kirriemuir, ANS, SCT and Alexander's birth certificate (Scotlandspeople) 16 Oct 1857 Kingoldrum, Kirriemuir, ANS, SCT.(Legitimated by the subsequent marriage of the parents-such marriage being registered in the Parish of Kingoldrum, County of Forfar, October 23rd, 1857. On both of these documents and on the 1861 census he is listed as a Mason. I have been unable to find him on the 1871 census. I am trying to verify James Webster Bremner's birth, death and occupation.

Olive Tree Answer:
Hello Wendye - Anything you find on the internet is suspect, and must be verified. Please take a moment to read my answer to Debbie's question

I use the census records on
Ancestry.com but Footnote,com also has many online.

The person on the 1871 census at Morrice Place is Alexander Bremner, with grandson Alexander, et al. It is not James.

You have been to Scotlandspeople - you may want to go back and look for James' death; we know that he was living after 1855, so unless he left the country, you will find him.

You will not find a statutory birth certificate for James; they begin in 1855. But you will be able to find a parish register entry for him.

James' birth is listed on the IGI (an extracted entry, which is usually trustworthy, but again requires verification). An extract from the page can be purchased at Scotlandspeople ("Old Parish Registers").

Finding parents of brothers born early 1820s Pennsylvania

James' Question:

I have searched for brothers Joseph Gordon b. 1823 ?? Pennsylvania, and Harrison Gordon b.1827 ?? Pennsylvania. My first location of them was Baughman Twp., Wayne Co., Ohio 1850. I have traced them after that, but have never found a sign of them before that.

AskOlive Answer:
Hello James - When it is difficult to trace an ancestor backwards, there are other methods you can use. One is to search forward, which you have done, making sure to develop all the children of each of the brothers. Look for obituaries of every descendant. Look for death records to find out if there are any clues provided as to parents or grandparents' birth locations or names.

Another method is to develop theories based on clues. Then work to prove or disprove those theories. The theories can be very helpful as they offer ideas for further research. For example, look for the children's names of each of the brothers. (make sure they are in birth order). IF you know their wives and who the parents of each wife was, look for naming patterns. For example if Brother "A" married Suzy and Suzy's parents are known to be Robert and Elizabeth, and if Suzy named her first 4 children Robert, Catherine, Elizabeth and Joseph, you might want to consider that there is a very good chance that Joseph and Catherine are the names of her husband's parents! So that would be a theory that you could work on. You would then look for a couple with those names in Pennsylvania in 1850 and earlier.

Since you have two brothers to work with, your odds are better, and what luck if you happen to find that both brothers named children with names that could be the paternal grandparents (parents of the brothers).

You can also look on the census records you already found - check each one to see who the neighbours were. It is possible that the brothers had a married sister living near, or an uncle or aunt or some other relative. Look for patterns - do you find the same people living near them in each census?

Also take a look at church baptisms or marriages or burials or death records. Who were the witnesses, sponsors or informants? See if the brothers ever used the same people at these events, for if they did, chances are that it could be a relative. You may have to trace the witnesses back to find out how they fit into the tree (if they fit at all!)

Those are just a few ideas for you, I hope they help

How to find Birthplace of an ancestor born circa 1835 Ireland

Blaine's Question:

I have spent over ten years on this one. My great great grandfather John O'Connell was born in Ireland in 1825 and, per his marriage record, was the son of Jeremiah O'Connell & Bridget. He emigrated (per his obituary) to Lawrence, Massachusetts in 1846 and, by 1850 was living in Andover MA. In February,1850 he married Mary Horan of Buttevant, Co. Cork in Lawrence, MA . He and Mary lived in Andover until their deaths in 1896. John had a wheelwright shop. Family lore indicates that he may have come from Limerick along with four brothers each of whom "went his own way." John did not serve in the Civil War.

I have all the census records for John and Mary from 1850 through 1880. I have their marriage record and their death records. The 1865 state census shows that he was naturalized. The 1870 federal census shows he was a male "citizen". He was listed on Andover's voting records in 1877 and 1884. I have contacted the Massachusetts Judicial Archives as well as every Essex County, Massachusetts court that I can think of. I have also tried the National Archives. asking if there is a record of his naturalization. I've found nothing.

Can you offer any suggestions on how to proceed further with the search for a naturalization record or some other record that might identify his actual place of birth? Thank you very much for your thoughtfulness.

AskOlive Answer:
Hello Blaine, You will need to know if John was Catholic or non-Catholic, as different records exist in Ireland for each religion. I would pay a visit to Ireland GenWeb for more help. As for naturalization records, since you know that in 1870 he indicated he was a citizen of the USA, there should be some papers for him. However it is unlikely they will give the detail you want but you may be lucky. See an example of an 1832 naturalization document versus an 1880. The very early one gives a specific place of birth, the later one gives only country of birth. Since you are looking somewhere between 1850ish and 1865 you may or may not find what you need.

You may want to check for free Massachusetts naturalizations but don't miss Footnote.com and their Naturalization Records from NARA

You may also need to check neighbouring counties or states in case John naturalized elsewhere.

Finding Michigan or Canadian Birth Records

Marilynn's Question:

How can I find birth records from Michigan or Canada? I'm looking for records from 1821 to 1850.I have only the names of the people I am looking for. I would appreciate any tips.

AskOlive Answer: Hello Marilyn, Canada is a huge country, and every province and territory started keeping vital registrations at different time periods. You must narrow your search to (at the minimum!) a province or territory before you can find what records exist and where they are kept. For example Ontario did not start their Vital Registrations until 1869 and before that time period genealogists must check for church records. Depending on what county in Ontario ancestors lived, different church records have survived. See Canadian Genealogy for more help with finding Canadian genealogy records.

As for Michigan, the State of Michigan vital records office has records of births, deaths, and marriages that occurred in Michigan and were filed with the state as early as 1867. I would check the Michigan GenWeb site for the county of interest to you to find out what is available for the time period you need.

Also you may want to check out this Ancestor Birth Record Finder for more help

Finding an English Birth Record in Bishop's Transcripts or other Records

Vesta asked

My ancestor Frederick George Rumble Olley was born in Norwich, Norfolk, England abt 1829. I found him on the 1841 census, 12 yrs old living with his parents Edward Olley and Sarah Rumble who were married in Mar 1830 in Norwich. A copy of his parent's marriage certificate reveals that neither of them were married before. He worked for the railroad for 55 years which I had checked for personnel records for possible birth information to no avail.. There is no copy of his birth record in the Norfolk parish records. He died Mar 19, 1912 age 83, claiming he was a native of Norwich (according to his obit). He was married twice and both marriage certificates just have his father's name on it, no mother's name. As he gets older, the names "George Rumble" are added on official documents eg. censuses, marriage and death certificates. My question is there any way I can find an birthdate for this fellow?

Hello Vesta, An intriguing puzzle! I am curious about your comment that ....There is no copy of his birth record in the Norfolk parish records... It sounds from that statement that you have checked every single set of church records for the entire county of Norfolk. If that is the case, you may wish to check the Parish Chest records.

A quick look at the FamilySearch catalogue shows over 2 dozen sets of records from the Parish Chests. Have you also checked the Bishop's Transcripts?

If you have not checked every single set of church records for all of Norfolk, then I suggest you look at parishes which are near Norwich. It may be that your Frederick was born in another parish and baptised there, but moved as an infant to Norwich. If that were the case he would probably always say that he was born in Norwich.

As for his obit, don't forget that it was probably written by a family member after his death and not by him beforehand. So they would only write what they think is correct. And family members can be very wrong! My husband's grandfather's obit, written by his daughter, gave the incorrect husband for her sister! Just something for you to think about....